In Conversation: Imme Ermgassen and Rhiannon Butler

Imme Ermgassen is the co-founder of British botanic aperitivo brand Botivo, and a voice for female founders and independent brands (follow her on Linkedin for inspiration and words of wisdom). She’s also the mother of five-year-old twins, Rufus and Sanne. Rhiannon Butler is the co-founder, with Maria Georgiou, of cult food and events production company Mam Sham, and is the mother of one-year-old Frieda. Both have been recognised among CODE’s Women of the Year (Imme most recently in 2025; Rhiannon in 2022). The two women sat down with CODE to discuss the realities of building a business while raising young children and why parental level needs a fundamental overhaul for everyone, not just for women.

CODE: First of all, can you tell me briefly about your experience of pregnancy and birth?

Imme: “Twins always come early; mine were four weeks early. I was in a meeting; my clients said afterwards they noticed I was a bit fidgety. Eventually I went to the hospital and they were, like, you are six centimetres dilated and you’ve been in labour three days. Then I had to have an emergency C-section. It was a very bizarre experience; I’d closed my laptop and ten hours later had two kids.”

Rhiannon: “I feel really lucky I had a really nice pregnancy; I didn’t get sick or anything. I’m quite small and have never felt that womanly; so it felt quite powerful. On my due date, I did a health and safety inspection of our prep kitchen. You just keep going with stuff.”

CODE: Did you take maternity leave?

Imme: “Firstly, I think the important thing to talk about here is whether men get paternity leave. I think that was my biggest issue. I was in hospital for a week with the kids and, because it was COVID, my husband wasn’t allowed in at all, so actually when I came out of the hospital, he hadn’t seen his kids and only had two days before he had to be back in the office, which is insane. Men need more paternity leave to support women and also for them to feel they’re involved with their kids. And secondly, it’s obviously the money thing. You can’t take too much time off. From the government, I got £500 a month; for twins, you don’t even get double, you get the same amount. I had to go back after four months because I was working for myself; I went back early because I couldn’t afford to continue just living on £500 a month.”

Rhiannon: “My partner only had two weeks off. I had a forceps delivery and couldn’t sit down for six weeks so I was either standing, holding the baby, or lying down, breastfeeding her. The recovery from birth is savage. It’s a massive thing that’s not talked about. Maria [Georgiou, Rhiannon’s partner at Mam Sham] was a rock star. She really looked after Mam Sham. I didn’t open a laptop but would still do what I could on my phone whilst breastfeeding. We’re so lucky that we’ve got an amazing team of front and back of house people for our events. I wasn’t doing any pitching; I wasn’t doing any decks like Maria was doing; she was doing the lion’s share and doing overtime, while I was doing what I could. I really feel very grateful to her. The thing with events is that you’d have two weeks madness, then I would check out again.”

CODE: What kind of support network did you have?

Imme: “My mum died just before the twins were born; my dad when they were two weeks old, so I had this sort of overlaying level of grief. I didn’t have a support network because my siblings are all abroad. We got a nanny at four weeks who actually is still with us today. It’s a sacrifice you make because you actually end up paying yourself less than, or the same as, the nanny and you wonder should I just be at home and not working and not feeling guilty the whole time? But, the kind of person I am, I need to work and do my thing, and that will hopefully be something which my kids will be inspired by. The nanny does less hours now but she picks them up from school which allows me to work late and try to make Botivo a success. She’s the secret sauce, basically, and I have no idea how women who aren’t lucky enough to be able to have that survive.”

Rhiannon: “I have an amazing friend, Lauren [Crook], who is the head chef at The Baring and she would come and take Frieda to the park while me and Maria did a couple of hours because me and my partner don’t have family in London. Maria’s mum actually has stepped in quite a few times; she is like the baby whisperer. And then my mum has sometimes driven to London and been there while I”ve done some meetings. I try not to be jealous of other people’s family situations!”

CODE: You’re both working for yourselves. Does that afford you a freedom that others in the hospitality industry don’t have?

Rhiannon: “Hospitality is so tricky because of the shifts. Your employers have to be really understanding with your rota and you don’t want to be paying for babysitters while you’re booth doing a Friday night shift in a restaurant. I remember when I was pregnant and working at Mam Sham five days a week, I was working in a restaurant at the weekend and was, like, it would be great if I could sit down for five minutes after four hours on the floor at six months pregnant. Women feel awkward asking for things, I think; if you are doing shift work, you don’t want to be the person influencing the rota.”

Imme: “You have to be empathetic towards the people you work with because, for people who have chosen not to have kids, it’s quite annoying when people who have kids get to have preferential hours: how come they always get to have their Sundays off?

CODE: Imme, your twin were 18 months old when you launched Botivo. What possessed you?

Imme: “I never planned to become a founder. At the time I’d been a consultant for brands for seven years. I tasted Botivo at an event and fell in love with it so I approached my now business partner and said “I need to be part of this”. It was purely because I loved it so much. Would I have done it if I’d known what starting your own business entails particularly when you have kids but even if you don’t? I probably wouldn’t have, to be honest. It’s hard to say out loud because once you’ve done it, you have a thirst for it and can’t go back, but being up 24 hours worrying about things, feeling guilty about not seeing my kids enough, and all those things that come with being a founder, I think I wasn’t prepared for those.”

CODE: It can be hard for parents to ask for the support they need.

Imme: “At Botivo, the whole thing was built around the idea of how we create equity between men and women in the business. Working hours and hybrid working and shared parental leave have been a really important focus for me, as someone who went through that and maybe was very aware that those things were in place. We have flexible working hours, for example, so people work 40 hours a week but office hours are between ten and three, so people can move around their timing whether for childcare or something else. I think we have a responsibility to create structures that allow mothers and fathers to thrive in the work environment. I don’t believe we can actually change things for women unless men are given a role where they can nurture more and that feels validated by society. Putting those structures in place is a mass responsibility for the next generation of founders.

Hospitality is having such a tough time. No one can afford to keep the lights on because this government hasn’t supported hospitality at all. There’s VAT, business rates, prices going up… The idea of them then having extra money to support men and women in their journey is insane. The lack of support from the government is not just impacting creativity and jobs, it’s impacting a generation of women and men and their children, and it’s got a huge knock-on impact.”

CODE: What were your fears before your children arrived? Were you concerned you would lose touch?

Rhiannon: “The idea of getting pregnant was something I’d always wanted to push back because what if we miss out on, like, one major opportunity? I had a major fear I was going to give birth then get the biggest opportunity of our lives and I wouldn’t be able to do it and I would hold Mam Sham back. Letting Mam Sham down and letting Maria down was my biggest fear.”

CODE: What has changed since for you?

Rhiannon: “What has changed for Mam Sham that has been kind of brilliant is that Maria has taken more of a creative director role, and she’s evolved Mam Sham through her interests while I was working less. So maybe it’s been good for Mam Sham. Maybe there have been doors that have opened. Sometimes you get so bogged down in the day-to-day, it’s hard to make time for the creative things that were the reason you got into the business in the first place.”

Imme: “The biggest thing for me is not having time before or after work, that normal space that you’d have for that big creative thinking, it has to happen during work hours now. I don’t have time to just be with myself or reading to get inspiration. I need to think big in the half hour I have.”

CODE: Do you think you’ve got more efficient?

Rhiannon: “Yes, massively. I sometimes used to be almost intimidated by how big Mam Sham could get. I just feel like, after labour, after looking after a really upset newborn while trying to do a little bit on your phone, I feel there’s so much I can achieve, having a baby has jolted me into the present which has made decision making a lot faster as I’m not over thinking as much. Also my multi-tasking has reached a new level, I was always good at it, when I was waitressing I loved working through many different mental lists, but now I’m a mum, it’s a different juggle as you’re working through different mental lists while wearing multiple hats.”

CODE: As founders with your own businesses, have you taken a financial hit?

Imme: “Definitely, yeah! Whilst being on maternity leave, big time. It’s that thing of hoping it all pays off in the end. At the moment, the environment for independent brands, businesses and restaurants is just really hard. We’re lucky we’re in a growing category but things could change at any moment. But, you start realising, OK, I can’t be dependent on that one channel or one kind of person, so you start to get creative.

You’re basing the financing on the fact that it’s going to pay off years down the line. You have to have so much confidence and belief in what you’re doing to get yourself through the day to day. You don’t have a pension and all these things you would need, so if you don’t actually do well in the end, you’re kind of screwed and that, I guess, adds motivation.”

CODE: What advice do you have for people juggling their businesses and family commitments?

Imme: “I think you have to remember that, even though you do feel guilt the whole time, your kids are one day going to say “that was cool that mum did that”.

Rhiannon: “For every mum, the experience is so unique to you and your family, and you need to find your own way and your own balance. Your hours are going to be what your hours are; your clients are going to be who your clients are. But, don’t be scared to ask for help from people as well.”